Notification between Hubzilla and Mastodon (the Platzhirsch)

2025-04-05 15:14:15

adminsforum@hubzilla.org

BauerUlli wrote the following post Sat, 05 Apr 2025 15:15:14 +0200

Notification between Hubzilla and Mastodon (the Platzhirsch)

Hello everyone,
I would like to talk again about the notification system between Mastodon, most users in the Fediverse, and Hubzilla. My experience/feeling. Sustainable discussions over a longer period of time (days) can actually only be held with the ‘thread’ system of Hubzilla/Friendica (and friends). Everyone who participates in this thread in any way, with a comment, like or share, is informed when something happens. And that basically forever.
I can log out of the thread if I've had enough or log in if I don't want to participate but am interested.
And! If Mastodon worked exactly like Hubzilla, everyone would be informed about what's going on in the thread without having to be explicitly tagged, which is really annoying because it makes everyone feel included or left out. Hubzilla doesn't specify anything because of the system, because it's not necessary in Hubzilla style. In this case, the recipient decides whether he wants to continue participating or not.
Is that all right as I understand it. If not, please correct me.
(Translated by a machine from German)

show all 13 comments

2025-04-05 16:58:13

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

The problem is that Mastodon and many other Twitter-style fediverse platforms do not understand what a threaded conversation is.

Also, Mastodon handles notifications VERY differently than Hubzilla does. Mastodon only notifies people if they are mentioned.

This is how they designed it. This unfortunately results in lost messages and incomplete conversations on their end.

Unfortunately, we can't control how other platforms display posts, and we can't change how they notify users.

Whereas, platforms such as Hubzilla, Friendica, Mitra, Lemmy, NodeBB, (streams), Forte, and others that support threaded conversations will try to show the entire thread.

Hubzilla sends enough information so that they could display the entire thread if they wanted to. If they don't, it is because they chose not to implement threaded conversations.

2025-04-05 17:01:22

*_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@BauerUlli Unfollowing a thread doesn't stop its notifications here, which would be very desirable.

2025-04-05 17:12:13

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

To make things easier for interacting with Mastodon users, you can turn on "Reply on Comment" in Features -> Conversations.

If you are a user, go to: /settings/features/

If you are an administrator, you can turn this on for all users at: /admin/features/

2025-04-05 17:20:48

BauerUlli

bauerulli@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Scott M. Stolz Is enabled.
the first comment is different. There is no automated insert. Right?
And I have insert more handles if people should be notificated

2025-04-05 18:02:52

Feral Ferment

feralferment@klacker.org

@BauerUlli, @Scott M. Stolz, @*_jayrope,

On a slightly different note: Hubzilla has the "connection" or Facebook-like "friend" concept of mutual following, while Mastodon (similar to Twitter) decouples your "followers" from users you are "following".

So when a Hubzilla user sends a "connection" request to a Mastodon user, the Mastodon user doesn't understand the need to accept it, and often rejects it suspecting something shady going on.

Because Mastodon is the overwhelmingly dominant Fediverse platform, this is a major issue for users of Hubzilla and other platforms that rely on the "connection" model.

2025-04-05 18:14:56

William shane Soennichsen

william@williamsmt.network

okay.

2025-04-05 19:24:51

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@Feral Ferment The Mastodon user only needs to accept your connection if they want access to your "friends only" posts and get notifications of your posts. Otherwise it just acts as a one way follow, where you are notified of their posts, but they are not notified of yours.

It is the same with as Hubzilla connection. If they choose not to accept your connection request, you are still following their public posts, unless they delete your connection request.

Although Hubzilla does not make it obvious, one way follows are possible in Hubzilla.

2025-04-05 21:20:58

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

The difference is:

Mastodon users receive posts (there's no distinction between a post and a comment) in three cases:

Someone whom they follow posts it. Including when that someone replies to someone else.
Someone whom they follow boosts it.
Someone mentions them. Regardless of whether or not they follow that someone.

In either case, they only see that one post in their timeline. If they want to see the whole thread, they have to open it themselves. This is inconvenient, and it isn't straight-forward, and so, many Mastodon users never see the thread that a post is part of. In fact, whether the whole thread exists on their home instance depends on whether all replies went to someone on their home instance.

So if Alice posts something, and Bob replies to Alice, and Carol replies to Bob, and Dave replies to Carol, and you reply to Dave, and you want Alice, Bob, Carol and Dave to see your reply, then you have to mention all four.

Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte work differently.

First of all, they're aware of conversations. In addition, they distinguish between a post and a comment.

On Friendica and Hubzilla, you only receive posts from your contacts directly. You don't receive their comments on posts if you haven't received the posts first. (On (streams) and Forte, this is actually an option. And when you receive the comment, (streams) and Forte reel in the whole thread around the comment as well.)

But: Once you have a post on your stream, you also receive all comments that come in after the post has arrived on your stream. All without anyone having to mention you.

Also, while Mastodon only shows you single-message piecemeal unless you actively open the thread behind a post, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte show you entire conversations right away by default. Even when you're doomscrolling through your stream, you're scrolling past conversations and more conversations.

On Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, mentions are completely unnecessary for a comment to go where it's supposed to go.

Mentions only have one function. And that's to indicate whom a comment replies to. Especially on Hubzilla which is the only one of the bunch with no tree-style thread view, it'd be difficult otherwise to see whether a comment is a reply to the start post or to another comment, and if the latter, which comment.

If you reply to the start post, a mention is unnecessary. If there's no mention, your comment is automatically implied to be a reply to the start post anyway.

Now let's suppose Alice, Bob, Carol and Dave are all on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte.

If Alice posts something, and Bob replies to Alice, and Carol replies to Bob, and Dave replies to Carol, and you reply to Dave, and you want Alice, Bob, Carol and Dave to see your reply, then you don't have to do anything. By replying to Dave, you mention Dave so that everyone can see that it's Dave's comment that you've replied to.

Your comment will go straight to Alice and only to Alice. Triggered automatically by a timer, Bob, Carol and Dave will fetch the whole thread from Alice. This way, they will receive your comment in the correct place within the conversation. You have received their comments the same way.

However, this leads to cultural conflicts between Mastodon on the one side and Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte on the other side.

This way of receiving messages in the Fediverse is unknown to Mastodon users. Completely alien. Beyond all imagination.

Also, an unwritten rule of Mastodon's culture is that you may only reply to posts that you've received "the natural way". Natural by Mastodon's standards, that is. As in:

Someone whom you follow has posted it.
Someone whom you follow has boosted it.
You're mentioned in it.

Any other way of receiving a post, any other way, is not natural on Mastodon and therefore automatically assumed to not be natural. It looks like you've found that post by searching mastodon.social for a certain hashtag, then copied the post URL, then used the search on your instance to import it and reply to it.

From Mastodon's point of view, this alone counts as reply-guying already. And I think there are not exactly few Mastodon users who are eager to sanction someone upon first strike when that someone has replied to a post that they couldn't have received in a natural way on Mastodon.

In other words: Replying to someone who isn't a contact of yours and who hasn't mentioned you is perfectly normal on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte. But if that someone is on Mastodon, you always risk being blocked and/or reported and/or publicly shamed as a reply guy.

2025-04-05 22:13:15

Feral Ferment

feralferment@klacker.org

@Scott M. Stolz

I do not see any content from at least two Mastodon users I had tried to follow (I know for certain they have posted a lot of content later).

In my "connections" list, they are both visible with the big red dot indicating "Accepts:Nothing".

So I suppose they deleted my connection request, or maybe explicitly blocked me.

2025-04-05 23:06:38

BauerUlli

bauerulli@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Jupiter Rowland

So if Alice posts something, and Bob replies to Alice, and Carol replies to Bob, and Dave replies to Carol, and you reply to Dave, and you want Alice, Bob, Carol and Dave to see your reply, then you have to mention all four.

That is what I mean, I think. On Mastodon, you can't follow or have a serious discussion. You can share words, but not a discussion with more than two or three, that should lead to target. After all it is perhaps not so necessary, put the user of Mastodon should know, I think.

2025-04-05 23:29:45

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@BauerUlli Yup.

For one, look at any very popular Mastodon toot. You'll have dozens of replies to the toot itself. But there's hardly any reply to any of the replies because people simply don't see each other's replies. And for the same reason, you may have a dozen or more people saying the same.

Besides, how are you supposed to have a good discussion with a few more people as a Mastodon user if all the necessary mentions cut into your 500-character limit?

2025-04-06 04:22:33

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@Jupiter Rowland

And when you receive the comment, (streams) and Forte reel in the whole thread around the comment as well.

Hubzilla adopted Conversation Containers just like (streams) and Forte. After that update, it seems to be reeling in the whole conversation, where possible.

2025-04-06 07:09:47

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Scott M. Stolz Yes, when you already have the post on your stream.

But (streams) and Forte have the off-by-default option to go even further.

Let's suppose the following situation.

Alice sends a post. Bob comments on Alice. Carol comments on Bob. Dave comments on Alice, too.

You are connected to Carol, but not to Alice, nor does anyone repeat Alice's post to you.

On Hubzilla, you shouldn't receive anything from the thread. Hubzilla does not pull in single comments from other people's threads. Neither do (streams) and Forte by default.

But they have that off-by-default "third-party conversation" option that works like this:

They recognise Carol's comment because you're connected to Carol. Then they trace the comment back to being part of Alice's conversation. Then they pull Alice's post onto your stream (again, even if you aren't connected to Alice, and you shouldn't receive her post by Hubzilla's logic) with the whole conversation around it. And I think, when showing you the conversation, they put the focus on Carol's comment because it's the reason the whole thread is pulled in.